(10:33:38 AM) Blake O'Hare: I think all 3 of us have different concepts in our head for The Giver
(10:34:30 AM) PagedMemory: probably
(10:34:32 AM) Blake O'Hare: even while I'm trying to understand the other two, I don't think we're completely aligned and I think fixception might get mad once he sees whatever I start making
(10:35:01 AM) PagedMemory: both he and I have explained our concepts but I still don't know what's in your head wrt it
(10:35:27 AM) Blake O'Hare: I'm just worried about having to create several game mechanics
(10:35:32 AM) PagedMemory: if it is 9x we should skype or do a concall or something and talk about it in a high-bandwidth fashion
(10:35:39 AM) Blake O'Hare: yeah
(10:35:48 AM) ***PagedMemory doesn't have a mic or webcam
(10:36:00 AM) PagedMemory: and is on pay-per-minute cell plan
(10:36:01 AM) PagedMemory: ><
(10:36:03 AM) PagedMemory: I'm bad at things
(10:36:26 AM) PagedMemory: I really don't think multiple mechanics is going to be an issue
(10:36:39 AM) PagedMemory: think of it as a Really Slow RTS
(10:37:02 AM) PagedMemory: there are a lot of mechanics in a RTS but only one "gameplay" that they amke up
(10:37:46 AM) Blake O'Hare: are you busy right now?
(10:37:55 AM) PagedMemory: ish -- commenting on bugs and such
(10:38:33 AM) Blake O'Hare: we keep using this word "mechanics" back and forth and I don't think it's going to go anywhere until it's spcifically explained how later zoom levels are identical to early zoom levels in gameplay/memory usage/perf
(10:39:51 AM) PagedMemory: why wouldn't they be?
(10:40:03 AM) Blake O'Hare: are we doing the 3x3 thing?
(10:40:14 AM) PagedMemory: i think that's possible but not necessary
(10:40:29 AM) PagedMemory: think of it like this -- The Giver is a Slow RTS with 9 stages
(10:40:39 AM) PagedMemory: each "zoom" is really just a new stage load
(10:40:51 AM) PagedMemory: it just so happens that we carry over some state from the previous
(10:41:03 AM) PagedMemory: ex
(10:41:11 AM) PagedMemory: zooming from stage2 to stage3
(10:41:21 AM) PagedMemory: we have 3 people in stage2
(10:41:56 AM) PagedMemory: when we reach stage3 we want that to be consolidated such that those 3 people (units) are actually one unit because the zoom has reduced the detail (mip-mapping if you will)
(10:42:06 AM) PagedMemory: so we reset everything for stage3
(10:42:39 AM) PagedMemory: then we run Consolidate(Stage2StateStructure, Stage3StateStructure, zoom2->3)
(10:42:57 AM) PagedMemory: that looks at the stage2 structure and figures out what can be consolidated into where for stage3
(10:43:12 AM) PagedMemory: so at each stage you have roughly the same datastructure
(10:43:41 AM) PagedMemory: the "map" needn't (and i don't think it should be) a 3x3 at every level
(10:43:45 AM) PagedMemory: so we represent it as a graph
(10:44:03 AM) PagedMemory: but even then early 3x3 stages are just a graph 3x3 with the appropriate connections
(10:44:18 AM) PagedMemory: is that any more clear?
(10:44:18 AM) Blake O'Hare: do you think the theme of "spreading culture" will be visually evident at later zoom levels
(10:44:41 AM) PagedMemory: yea, I think it'll rely a lot on our terminology and use of color
(10:44:53 AM) PagedMemory: we establish a firm link between color and culture in the early stages
(10:45:11 AM) PagedMemory: so that in the late stages as you see a desaturated world / continent you understand what that means
(10:45:30 AM) Blake O'Hare: and what would the sprites look like at the continent level?
(10:46:31 AM) PagedMemory: if we're doing this tech-tree stuff then we can have info blurbs (or badges) on map zones indicating what forms of culture they're susceptible/resistant to
(10:46:36 AM) PagedMemory: i dunno
(10:46:41 AM) Blake O'Hare: that's a different game mechanic
(10:46:41 AM) PagedMemory: colored dots in my head
(10:46:51 AM) PagedMemory: it's not
(10:47:00 AM) PagedMemory: wait, which?
(10:47:04 AM) Blake O'Hare: moving sprites vs map zones
(10:47:06 AM) PagedMemory: resistance etc or tech tree?
(10:47:14 AM) PagedMemory: maps would move between zones
(10:47:17 AM) PagedMemory: er
(10:47:19 AM) PagedMemory: sprites
(10:47:21 AM) PagedMemory: at all levels
(10:47:36 AM) Blake O'Hare: and what are those sprites?
(10:47:40 AM) Blake O'Hare: they can no longer be crowds
(10:47:40 AM) PagedMemory: doesn't matter
(10:47:51 AM) Blake O'Hare: but it matters to me to have a clear vision of what I'm trying to do
(10:47:58 AM) PagedMemory: it changes per scale
(10:48:07 AM) PagedMemory: ex
(10:48:19 AM) PagedMemory: room->street it's individuals
(10:48:30 AM) PagedMemory: neighborhood->city it's small groups of people (2-3)
(10:48:44 AM) Blake O'Hare: code review, brb, keep typing
(10:48:44 AM) PagedMemory: city->country it's small performance groups
(10:49:07 AM) PagedMemory: country->world it's influential speakers, performance groups, large traveling shows, etc
(10:51:19 AM) Blake O'Hare: back
(10:51:27 AM) PagedMemory: k
(10:51:33 AM) PagedMemory: is it making more sense?
(10:51:40 AM) Blake O'Hare: yes
(10:51:47 AM) PagedMemory: i'm not sure how well this fits with what fixception had in mind but this is how it is in my head
(10:51:58 AM) Blake O'Hare: are there any police on the individual level?
(10:52:13 AM) Blake O'Hare: police/antagonists
(10:52:28 AM) PagedMemory: no, but it's only constrained by the AI not introducing any
(10:52:39 AM) PagedMemory: because we're slowing adding complexity to the game
(10:52:48 AM) Blake O'Hare: how does one lose?
(10:52:53 AM) PagedMemory: all culture dies
(10:53:02 AM) PagedMemory: probably can't lose until city level
(10:53:44 AM) Blake O'Hare: is 9x clear enough?
(10:53:47 AM) PagedMemory: no idea
(10:54:14 AM) PagedMemory: room->building->street--maybe-->neighborhood could be done with the 3x3 zooms to bigger 3x3 thing
(10:54:28 AM) PagedMemory: which helps set it
(10:54:45 AM) PagedMemory: we can reinforce that with a game selection screen in the menu as well
(10:55:00 AM) PagedMemory: once you've passed a stage you can start a new game at that stage
(10:55:11 AM) Blake O'Hare: side tangent:
(10:55:21 AM) Blake O'Hare: some zoom levels may potentially be more fun than others
(10:55:25 AM) PagedMemory: "New Game / New Game, Zoom to: #"
(10:55:26 AM) PagedMemory: yes
(10:55:36 AM) Blake O'Hare: so I'm thinking why not have a game mode that is just that zoom level on a relatively big map
(10:55:39 AM) PagedMemory: i'm expecting 1->5 to be kinda eh
(10:55:41 AM) Blake O'Hare: so you could have a giant map of individuals
(10:55:44 AM) Blake O'Hare: or a giant map of crowds
(10:56:00 AM) PagedMemory: hm
(10:56:07 AM) Blake O'Hare: and then this would be tangent to "story mode"
(10:56:13 AM) Blake O'Hare: it's like Starcraft
(10:56:15 AM) PagedMemory: yea
(10:56:17 AM) PagedMemory: makes sense
(10:56:32 AM) PagedMemory: but that would basically be creating a random stage and then setting teh AI to play at zoom-level X
(10:56:45 AM) Blake O'Hare: wouldn't there need to be an AI anyway?
(10:56:48 AM) PagedMemory: yea
(10:56:57 AM) PagedMemory: because the only real difference between the zooms is what gets introduced
(10:57:08 AM) PagedMemory: if that makes sense?
(10:57:16 AM) Blake O'Hare: introduced as in tech tree?
(10:57:27 AM) PagedMemory: game complexity
(10:57:38 AM) Blake O'Hare: of which tech tree is just one example?
(10:57:40 AM) PagedMemory: like every zoom is (zoom--) + 1
(10:57:41 AM) PagedMemory: yes
(10:58:05 AM) PagedMemory: which is why I'm saying it's all the same game mechanics
(10:58:08 AM) PagedMemory: all the way down
(10:58:15 AM) PagedMemory: it's just constrained at the bottom
(10:58:38 AM) Blake O'Hare: and physics are tweaked since things need to move slower when you're zoomed out
(10:59:13 AM) Blake O'Hare: hmm....
(10:59:21 AM) Blake O'Hare: I MAY be able to get a round earth
(10:59:31 AM) Blake O'Hare: using transform magic
(10:59:55 AM) PagedMemory: yea, but that's no different than unit's have independent move-rates
(11:00:01 AM) PagedMemory: I'm not sure round earth would be fun
(11:00:12 AM) PagedMemory: because it'd be hard to keep everything in sight at once
(11:00:12 AM) Blake O'Hare: on the last zoom level
(11:00:25 AM) PagedMemory: imagine trying to play SC on a globe
(11:00:27 AM) Blake O'Hare: well, earlier zoom levels would need to scroll anyway, right?
(11:00:36 AM) PagedMemory: oh
(11:00:36 AM) PagedMemory: huh
(11:00:37 AM) PagedMemory: no
(11:00:43 AM) PagedMemory: i had thought of this as board-game esque
(11:00:45 AM) Blake O'Hare: everything is always on one screen?
(11:00:46 AM) PagedMemory: but they totally could
(11:00:54 AM) PagedMemory: i just hadn't thought about that
(11:01:10 AM) Blake O'Hare: this explains our difference in vision
(11:01:24 AM) Blake O'Hare: you started from something like Risk and I started from something like StarCraft
(11:01:38 AM) Blake O'Hare: or a 2D Katamari Damacy which does share quite a lot in common with this
(11:01:38 AM) PagedMemory: well
(11:01:47 AM) PagedMemory: huh
(11:01:52 AM) PagedMemory: i... don't quite see it
(11:01:54 AM) PagedMemory: but okay =)
(11:01:55 AM) Blake O'Hare: zooms
(11:01:57 AM) PagedMemory: ohhh
(11:02:00 AM) PagedMemory: gotcha
(11:02:04 AM) Blake O'Hare: collecting things into one big mass
(11:02:09 AM) Blake O'Hare: in this case a horde of hippies
(11:02:17 AM) Blake O'Hare: rather than telephones and gorillas
(11:03:21 AM) PagedMemory: i guess we should document this conversation shouldn't we?